The range is out of scale to your space. And crammed into a corner like that, it might as well be a two burner module. Only one person can use it.

This is a very bad design. On multiple fronts. Please do not say that your cabinet seller originated this. It looks more like an appliance sales person designed it. Someone who gets a commission on appliances and doesn’t cook.

Thank you for your feedback! We will consider a smaller range with a single oven instead of a double oven, and putting the second oven in the island.. i guess across from the fridge, but that's a bit awkward-- though maybe less awkard than the oven right across from the door.

What are the other design elements that are bad?

This is a very preliminary type of design and needs all the help available in the Kitchen Forum where you will get good responses. Post a new better drawing with actual dimensions. That frig is not correct for depth. Keep in mind that counters stick out 1-1/2" past the cabinets. And how about lighting? You'll need ambient and task. Cans and undercabinet both led is a usable start.

Most of the cabinetry is in the "nook" area too far away from where it is functional

You need to not rush and post your layout in the Kitchen Forum. They have folks there who can help you with layout.

any other opinions on small versus large range?

A 48" range will need a hood that is 48-54" wide. Are you prepared to forego the upper cabinetry space for that hood? That size hood means it will need 10" diameter ductwork from the hood to the outside, if you don't already have it. That also means 1000 cfms or more, which then means you will need make-up air ("MUA"). The cost of the hood itself, possible upgraded ductwork, and the MUA will add a minimum of $4000 over the cost of the 48" range, and likely more (people have reported spending $8-10k on exhaust for 48-60" ranges). Have you budgeted for that? A 36" range or rangetop will have more manageable exhaust requirements, though you will still need to include the hood and ductwork in your budget.

Don't put the cooking appliance in the island. A slippery slope for island exhaust, seating at the island, and usable island counter space.

I would try to do rectangular island. Please don't do bar level for chairs. It is terrible to use and make all kitchen hidden behind it. You have large area for breakfast table, don't need to build in benches. I also don't like idea of continued lower cabinets under window. I think it better to do furniture like narrow design of cabinets on that wall before windows and have the rest of space for nice table with chairs that would be centered in the area, not just stuck on other wall.

The 36" range still looks big, leaving very little space on the sides. But this looks much better than before. The placement of the CSO is great.

Why do you put the trash into the island. I'd leave it in the more traditional location under or next to the sink.

That might just be enough space to put a freezer drawer into the island. And that would allow for a narrower all-fridge column, which in turn results in more space next to the stove.

It's also more expensive, though.

A CSO is a combination steam oven. Isn't that what I see in your drawing?

Can you place the trash under the sink? We're currently in temporary housing during construction, and even this very basic kitchen easily fits under-sink trashcans.

If the cabinets were just a bit deeper, we could have installed the trashcans back-to-back in a tandem configuration.

And if this kitchen had a shallower custom-made sink, we could have gotten taller non-standard trash cans. There are so many options to solve this problem.

Also, if this was designed from scratch, we wouldn't have swinging doors, but rather a pull out.

Can you move windows as part of this project?

How do you plan to use the counter in the nook area?

Do you need counter seating and banquette seating or can you eliminate one of these? If so, which would you rather have? Seating for how many?

A lot of times kitchen designs are very dependant on the footprint of the area you have to work with and what you need to make it function for your family. This looks to me like you are doing just that. I definitely like the smaller range, that’s a good decision. The only two recommendations I have is to turn the island in line with the sink base cabinets and make it rectangular. Keep walking space around the island in mind, it looks like you already are. Secondly, I’d remove the steam oven and limit the island to a microwave cubby, double trash pull out, and drawer stacks. Good luck and happy renovating!

Thanks so much all! Some specific responses:

We can't do a rectangular island because then it would be way too far away from the sink. To get it closer, we have that cutout in order to leave walking space.

We are doing bar level for chairs because I really want the island to be a prep space for my bulk cooking-- i don't want to split the level. Plus we aren't going to eat there regularly, it's just a gathering spot for when extended family/friends come over.

Glad to hear a couple people are preferring the 36" range. Can't make it any smaller than that though!

I don't like the trash under the sink because when I'm doing dishes at the sink and stuff, it seems people are constantly trying to access the trash when it is underneath.

Yes it's a combination steam oven.

I'm not sure how I plan to use the counter in the nook area. It seems like a nice buffet space.

Yes we can move windows if there will be a big benefit (but we'd rather not!)

We definitely need seating in the nook so I can't give that up. We originally only had a couple stools for the island on the far end, but my brother-in-law recommends the seating all along the side too, so we can all gather more easily around the kitchen when everyone is over.

"turn the island in line with the sink base cabinets and make it rectangular. " I didn't understnad that, what do you mean to turn the island in line with the sink base cabinets? To change the orientation of the island to vertical instead of horizontal? There isn't enough room for the table for that.

Since you can move windows, would this work for you?

I moved the fridge to the other side of the DR entry, which gains you room around the range. I put a 48" range in but you could also go with a 36" range (see the numbers in red).

The pantry storage is split up into the 12" deep cabinet on the lower wall and 2 15" pantries on each side of the banquette bench.

Traditional Kitchen · Еще

I added a prep sink to the island to give you a good work zone. That means that someone can be at the clean-up sink while you're meal prepping and vice versa. Maybe the extra sink means that you can put the trash under the sink, freeing up a cabinet for storage.

It's still a bit lean on storage, though.

I have another idea but I won't have time to draw it up until tomorrow.

That's pretty interesting, Lisa, thanks for sharing your creative ideas. But is that fridge too far from the heart of the kitchen? And what is that nested box on the island representing? (Ah, it's the extra prep sink. But isn't that too close to the other sink/don't we need more landing space across from the fridge?

If you want to make sure that the prep sink gets maximum usage, take a look at this posting: https://www.houzz.com/discussions/am-i-crazy-to-want-a-24-sink-dsvw-vd~4647411

Not a cheap solution. But it'll get you an incredibly useful and usable prep sink. I was originally doubtful that a small sink can be anything but a gimmick. But I really like the organization of this compact ledge-style sink. Dino Rachiele does some amazing things with his sink designs.

"my extended family all have the feedback that an extra sink in the island is not worth the expense."

The key to whether it's worth the expense is whether it improves function and is placed well. As Arica L Munn LLC stated, adding a prep sink to the island creates a good work triangle between fridge, range and sink.

Without it, yes, the fridge is a bit far away from the sole sink. But it's also not well placed in your plan since it minimizes counter space around the range and it would require backtracking since it doesn't follow the ice-water-stone-fire (fridge-sink-counter-range) path for meal prep. Ideally, your range should not be between the fridge and the sink.

Listen to this advice!

Our temporary kitchen was clearly put in place by the previous owner so that he could rent out the in-law unit. It wasn't actually designed with usability in mind. In fact, I am sure the owner never even heard of the concept of a "work triangle".

It's a major pain every day. It's certainly possible to use this kitchen. But there is so much running back and forth, it really slows things down; and it's annoying if more than one person is in the kitchen.

Enabling a good workflow is a really big deal. And I am not convinced the current kitchen drawings that have been proposed are quite there yet. I am not normally a big fan of having two sinks, and neither am I a fan of having a sink in an island. But for this particular layout, the prep sink in the island is the best solution I have seen in this thread to date. It will certainly make for a much better workflow, as you can now always stay on the side of the stove.

That's in fact why I was throwing out the option of splurging and getting a better-designed and more functional workstation-style prep sink.

Is it possible to move the refrigerator to where the pantry is or would that be too far away? It would give your stove and hood area a sense of space.

"my extended family all have the feedback that an extra sink in the island is not worth the expense."

Having watched too many HGTV shows, I find it interesting that almost everyone insists on two sinks in the master bathroom, yet many consider two sinks as an extravagance in the kitchen. For me, it would be worth it to segregate the food prep and clean-up functions if I had the space.

You have a nice sized kitchen but nearly all of your meal prep will be on the island. There just isn't enough room between sink and range and range and fridge to be useful for prepping. You'll have enough room to set a pan down in the est 15" space between range and fridge.

Additionally, because you've given up a lot of space to appliances and a trash pull-out in the island, you'll be lean on storage space for prep items. Unless you are a minimalist, you'll likely going to end up storing prep items in the nook cabinets, which means more steps during meal prep.

You wrote that you hate having the trash under the sink because people want to get to it when you're at the sink. Do you realize that much of your island prep will be over appliances? You'll need to step aside when someone wants to use the MW. And will you really want to prep over the steam oven when it's in use?

This is how I expect meal prep flow to go: Pantry to island; fridge to sink, crossing the cook zone, to island to range with a side trip or two to the nook cabinets to obtain additional prep items. You may end up storing measuring cups and spoons in the island and moving baking/casserole pans to the nook cabinets. If you do, I think you'll want to do a drawer in drawer so that you're not storing items normally stored in top drawers in deeper drawers lower down.

Accessing the cabinets beneath the island will be a PITA if you store often used items here.
It's your kitchen, your money and you know what will and won't work for you but honestly, I think your plan can be improved. Kitchen remodels are costly and a huge inconvenience so IMO, you should aim for getting the most bang for your buck.

Can the DR entry be shifted towards the LR? If so, this would be possible.

The fridge is shifted to the right but not as far as I had placed it in a previous proposal. You gain usable counter on each side of the range. With the additional counter on each side of the range, a 48" range doesn't look as out of scale for the space as it does in your first plan. That said, you can also downsize to a 36" range. I would put the steam oven between range, leaving the island for prep.

I moved the pantry storage to the nook area, leaving plenty of space between table and 12" deep cabinets. 12" is a good depth; you won't need to add ROTs (roll out trays) or pull-outs to the cabinets to access items. That will save you money.

I show the nook with a 48" dia pedestal table. It's easier to get on and off the benches without table legs in the way. A square or rectangular trestle table would also work.

Durham Trestle Table · Еще

I reduced the depth of the island, which freed up room on the bottom wall for more storage and counter space. This will be much more accessible and thus usable than storage under the island. It can serve as a beverage or breakfast bar and for a buffet, better served in a perimeter location.

I show 4 seats at the island but you may be able to fit 5.

Interesting ideas, thanks! You definitely inspired us to make a rectangular island. What do you all think of this latest revision? The island is meant to be a little longer to line up with the end of the pantry probably.

Interesting ideas, thanks! You definitely inspired us to make a rectangular island. What do you all think of this latest revision? The island is meant to be a little longer to line up with the end of the pantry probably.

Your latest idea is only a slight modification of your previously plans. It still has all of the same issues.

Can you move the DR door?

Thank you SO MUCH for all for your help and patience. I know we aren't implementing a lot of the ideas. There are little reasons here and there why we aren't :( For example we don't want to have more construction to move the door, my husband said no for more demolitions/constructions!

It seems like I am worrying about things that no one on here has flagged as an issue, and I'm not worrying so much about things that people here have flagged as issues. I guess that's due to my inexperience.

For example, I was concerned that the wrap-around cabinets look heavy and old fashioned so I'm thinking of going back to the old way of ending the cabinets and leaving the corner blank.

And I was concerned about that huge space between the sink and counter, it would be awkward to rinse veggies for instance and then have to take a few steps to put them on the main prep area, so I'm back to thinking about an L-shaped island. There is actually room for a sink on the island now (if I replace the mixer stand) but I'm not so sure a sink is helpful if there is no fridge on the pantry wall, which we don't want as we don't want the fridge so close to the family room. I've sketched out the family room now so you can see what I mean.

And I'm concerned about those benches. I wanted the benches to go up to the cabinets but the kitchen designer says there are no good solutions for where the bench will meet the cabinet-- there is no bookshelf option for the cabinet. So since the benches are on their own, it's a little awkward and feels unnecessary, so now I'm wondering if we should just get rid of the built-in benches and use chairs or even a store-bought bench.

Here's a new drawing-- one square is approximately a foot. You can see that we are trying to open the kitchen to the family room.

Don't feel badly, Serendipity, I was confused by redsilver's post, too. I tried but couldn't follow along at all.

"I wanted the benches to go up to the cabinets but the kitchen designer
says there are no good solutions for where the bench will meet the
cabinet-- there is no bookshelf option for the cabinet."

Are you working with a kitchen designer who reps a cabinet line or a cabinet designer? A KD will know kitchen design but a cabinet designer won't be as versed in - and can be very uninformed about - kitchen design. Given the space, your large appliance (literally) wish list and your reluctance to make structural changes, I think you really need to work with a KD. If the cabinet company doesn't have one on staff, hire an independent KD, then take his or her plan to the cabinet designer. That's what I did. It was the best investment in my kitchen.

I think the designer means that there aren't any good solutions in the cabinet line for the bench/cabinet meet up. I'm not really sure why that would be the case, though, unless the cabinet line has limited options. I don't see any reason why standard cabinets can't abut the banquette bench, as long as the bench extends beyond the table edge so that there's room to get past the cabinet to the bench.

Galley Kitchen · Еще

Private Residence · Еще

Georgian Style | Minneapolis · Еще

The next two kitchens show a bench backing up to a cabinet, as I suggested for the area next to the beverage/breakfast center.

Blairwood · Еще

Deluxe in Alexandria · Еще

Anyhoo, I don't understand why what I'm suggesting isn't possible. I hope that the cabinet line you're considering isn't so limited that you aren't able to do something similar to any of the above.

"...we don't want to have more construction to move the door, my husband said no for more demolitions/constructions!"

You're about to spend tens of thousands on a new kitchen and tens of thousands on high end appliances - your remodel will be close to if not over $100K - so IMO, drawing the line at moving a DR doorway in order to gain the best possible lay-out and make the most of your expenditures is foolish. Moving a doorway is likely the least expensive change you're contemplating. Personally, I'd find another budget item to eliminate but it's not my kitchen, not my money.

Or I'd find a lay-out that doesn't require structural changes but eliminates or minimizes your plans' lay-out issues.

For instance:

I moved the fridge to the other side of the DR entry, freeing up room for a 48" range. I moved the sink to the island (maxed out to length of a slab of quartz). You can prep on the island, left of the sink (looking at the plan, to the right when in the kitchen), on either side of the range or under the window.

The island will be similar to these:

Maui Beach House · Еще

DS Chicago to Birmingham · Еще

Kitchen Project · Еще

Wow lots to read! I am going to post my latest revision because it has this great idea my mom had to put the steam oven on the end of the island (it solves the problem of not getting a toe kick on the long side too), but I still need to catch up on the latest ideas that were shared. (Thank you so much!) i wanted to quickly respond to a previous poster about putting the stove/oven across the way-- I love that idea, my mom told me that too, but there isn't enough room on the wall to the left of the sink to put the range unfortunately, there isn't enough clearance on the left and the right is not accessible.

I am sorry for so many words. I hope you like your new kitchen. It will be very nice once it is accomplished.

Hello! Thanks lisa_a, I have to carefully consider all you've said.

I forgot to attach the image of the latest. The main change is that the steam oven is moved to the other side. I much prefer this way because then I can get a toe kick along the long edge. Plus I hated having a steam oven next to a microwave in an island. Also this opens up room for big drawers I can put pots/pans in near the stove. I also added onion baskets directly across from the stove at the end of the nook lowers.

That is such an interesting idea to move the primary sink, dishwasher, and trash to the island! I mean I cannot imagine not having a primary sink in front of a window, that's how I've had them all my life. We'll see if I can wrap my head around it.

I'm not sure I like such a narrow island. Something to consider.

Moving the steam oven doesn't fix the lack of counter and storage on both sides of your range. IMO, that is the biggest issue with all of your plans.

"I'm not sure I like such a narrow island."

To each their own. I'd hate having to access storage under the seating overhang and the pinch points you'll have between island and nook cabinets and the less than ideal aisle for back to back seating between island and banquette table. It looks like you'll have 54"; minimum recommended aisle for back to back seating is 60".

It also looks like you're aren't allowing more than 42" between perimeter counter and island. That's the minimum recommended aisle for a one-cook kitchen. You have a large kitchen so IMO, you should have wider aisles, at least 45" if not the minimum 48" aisles recommended for a 2 cook kitchen.

IMO, you have some fixed ideas for your kitchen that are getting in the way of a great lay-out that will be a pleasure to cook in, not just when you're the sole cook but when there are multiple cooks in your kitchen. As I wrote above, it's your kitchen, your money so you're free to move forward as you see fit. But you did ask for our feedback so why ignore it?

Having enough walking space is important. I solved the problem in my much smaller kitchen (and much smaller budget) by having a mobile table rather than an island. I don't expect you'll use this approach in your kitchen but it's worked our really well in mine.

Kitchen · Еще

Kitchen · Еще

Jerry, it's always great to look at your very well thought out kitchen. It provides so much inspiration

Well as it turns out I couldn't sell these other ideas to the stakeholders, so the basic layout is staying.